The Changing Landscape of Fear: The Witches (1990)

Screen Cares 

The Changing Landscape of Fear: The Witches (1990)

Originally Aired Tuesday October 25th, 2023

Intro, both hosts

<Spooky sounding theme music>

This is Screen Scares, a special October series created by Screen Cares. I’m Sarah, and I’m Jennie and we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen and dish on what scenes and scares excite us most during the fall season. And explore ways we can watch and be scared better, together. 

Jennie: My favorite month of the year is Witchtober. Witchtober, whenever I get to prepare for Halloween, I get to read books about witches, my kids get to read books about witches, and we all get to pretend that if we just brew up the right combination of essential oils and pumpkin spice seasoning, we too will be magical.

And so, of course, today I had to bring us a movie for Screen Scares that is, in my opinion, quintessential awesome witchiness. I have brought you Hocus Pocus, I have brought you Practical Magic, and today I bring you The Witches. 

Sarah: Yay! October, witchtober, witches, and I know that you picked the good witches, and I'm really interested in your take on this movie because this is, this is an oldie but a goodie.

Jennie: Oldie, but a goodie, a classic, in my opinion, a classic. One of those movies that I was like, “All right, kids, prepare yourselves for watching The Witches!” The first time we watched it-It wasn't like, you know, sometimes there's movies you're like, it's just on in the background. We're going to just watch it.

No, it's like everything down, dim the lights, make a snack. We don't often snack. We like have like during our movies, like we'll usually like maybe have a dinner. But this is like movie night level movie. The Witches. And you mentioned that I picked the good witches because I picked The Witches from 1990.

Not the most recent one. I won't even go into it. But like Anne Hathaway did her best. Good try. I actually liked some things about that. Some like choices they made about how the book ended. We'll talk about that in a little bit, but I really, if Angelica Houston is in it and she is the star, high master, terrible pants witch, I'm here for it.

She gives me those vibes. Oh my gosh, Angelica Houston all day. What are your thoughts about the 1990 virgin? You think I'm talking about Hocus Pocus again? <laughter> Oh my gosh. The 1990 version. 

Sarah: It's exactly those same things. I love this movie the first time I've seen it. I love this movie the first time I saw this, and I have loved it ever since.

And I love that it is one of those movies from our childhoods that... It really holds up over time. It's not a movie where you're like, wow, well, that's really awkward or that's inappropriate. I mean, generally speaking it is just a fantastic movie and yeah, basically Angelica Houston, like that's the reason, like it is just greater than the one that came out with Anne Hathaway.

Cause like, really? Come on. 

Jennie: No. I, and like I, whoever, whoever kind of said, Hey, let's remake everything. Listen, I will give you my money. I'll do it because I have to see what you're doing to it. But I distinctly remember when I saw they were doing a remake of The Witches, me just being like, why? Like, it was, it, no, like it was good the first time, but oh well.

So let's move on. If you haven't seen The Witches, let's give a brief synopsis. It's pretty quick. Sarah, will you read the IMDb description of the 1990s version of The Witches? 

Sarah:A young  boy stumbles onto a witch convention and must stop them, even after he has been turned into a mouse. And it is a PG movie again, from 1990, and it is an hour and 31 minutes.. 

Jennie: Exactly. Exactly. And that's about right. I don't think a whole lot more needs to go into that. They could have just said, plus Angelica Houston. Like, they could have done that. But yeah, that's the basic premise of it. They leave out the grandmother, who is like, key player here.

Long and short of it is, a boy becomes orphaned because of course he does. It's the beginning of a Roald Dahl book. We'd maybe mentioned this. I think I should back up. This is a screen adaptation of the Roald Dahl book that came out in 1983 by the same name, The Witches, and also a great book. I think I'm a little bit of a fangirl for Roald Dahl books.

So I, of course I love it. Orphaned boy is living with his grandmother. She has like a diabetic fit or they're very, not very clear, but the prescription is go to the seaside as it's so often is your, your husband's a doctor, he prescribes go to the seaside regularly, doesn't he, Sarah? 

Sarah: Of course. Every time he gets a patient with consumption, absolutely.

Jennie: But of course, it's not just any seaside retreat, it is the seaside retreat where the witches are holding their annual convention, because of course witches would have bureaucracy, what else is more evil? Of course they have a convention. And so, they call it the “Prevention of Cruelty to Children Convention.”

And there's a whole bunch of witches at this hotel, but they don't look like witches. They look like normal women who maybe have flashy purple eyes and squared off toes and horrifying, horrifying, bad shoes, scariest thing of all. But anyway, they're at this convention. Long story short, very quickly, very quickly, the boy is turned into a mouse and he has to stop the witches from turning all children into mice.

And the grandmother kind of helps, question mark, endangers her mouse grandson. And this is the premise of the story. It's a basic, like, children can save the world premise with magic and mayhem. I did a much longer version of the much shorter IMDb description, but I did it. There we go. 

Sarah: Yours was much more exciting. It was much more exciting. I think it would have done much better at marketing and getting people to watch it, and I loved 

Jennie: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. This will be my new job is just long winded descriptions of IMDb, um, summaries. This is where we're at. This is the movie.

We will have spoilers. Be prepared. If you haven't read the book, haven't watched the movie. It's impossible to talk about it without spoiling things. So Sarah, here's my question. What was your first viewing experience like of The Witches? And then what was your now viewing experience like? 

Sarah: So, my first experience was watching this as a kid and it really is one of those movies that I really do remember vividly watching with my family.

Um, we saw so many movies as a kid that some of them I know that we saw, like we've talked about seeing them, but I don't actually remember that experience of sitting down together with people and watching a thing. But I do about this one my mom was a librarian. She loved books. She wasn't a children's librarian.

She worked in a lot of different capacities, mostly colleges, but, um, still, the nerddom was there for books, and so, as long as I can remember, we were reading, like, the weirder things, like, like you mentioned, like, Roald Dahl, he is not your, like, run of the mill, um, happy, happy children's book writer.

There are dark things that happen. Somebody's trying to kill somebody like, and that was, you know, in the eighties and the nineties, that was a newer concept. Like now we've got Lemony Snicket and all of the like, iterations of that, that's the thing now. Um, but then that wasn't, so there was sort of this fun excitement of this darker side of, of children's lit.

We watched it, surprisingly, um, my sister was, um, just two and she was not allowed to come see this. So it was like my mom and me and my dad and, um, I'm guessing they got a babysitter for my sister or she was just left to her own machinations at home. I don't know- just kidding, Rebecca, I'm sure they got a sitter who is very lovely for you.

And it was so fun to feel so special with both parents watching the movie in a theater. Um, because as a sibling, like when your younger sibling is young, you don't feel that way. Always. You're like the responsible one. Then you don't get to be the one. I remember being so scared when we actually saw the reveal of the witches after their, like, human form was removed and we see their witch form.

Because it was even more horrifying than in the books. And that was one of my favorite things from the books was, like, the gross, weird illustrations that were in the, in the book. And I thought, wow, they did a really great job and they made it so much more scary instead of being a little bit quirky and funny, which is how I felt about it in the book.

so it was a great time. It was a great time. And it was really one of my favorite movie watching experiences, growing up. Um, so what about you? What was your first experience watching this? 

Jennie: Oh, so I just want to highlight some things about your viewing experience. I think are super interesting and super relevant to kind of my takeaways from The Witches.

And it's that feeling that you describe and the way you describe watching it in the theaters with both of your parents. And. I feel like this movie has a lot of themes of kind of parental protection, kids being taken care of or not being taken care of by adults. You know, these witches are trying to take care of children, prevent cruelty.

And I think that that's such a relevant theme. And so the fact that you got to watch it in like a special experience with both of your parents in the theaters is just right on with what I think is so special about this movie. I think it really brings up a bunch of feelings. And so that is actually my first viewing experience of The Witches.

I can't remember it. I actually can't. It went directly from my eyeballs to my, like, deep subconscious, and it just lives there. And so, for as long as I can remember, because this came out when I was... Um, for as long as I can remember, this movie has terrified me and intrigued me and delighted me and empowered in the way that movies like this empower kids.

And so I feel like I've always known it. In the same way that I think whenever we were talking about seasons ago, when we were talking about Wizard of Oz, the way that some movies just kind of seep into your aesthetic and your mindset and everything. I think The Witches is that for me the image of the painting at the beginning that the grandmother describes is just something that just Is always been there. It just has always always been there And so my first clear memory of watching this movie was with my kids on a movie night when they were pretty young I mean they were I mean, they were around the same age I probably saw it the first time, and they really liked it because it was dark, because they were coming out of that age of like, everything is bubble guppies and Paw Patrol and, you know, the good guy always wins.

And it was one of the first movies they watched where they were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. The good guy doesn't always win. And it was just kind of a delight to be like, I know, right? Life is crazy, kids. and then we shortly after that, um, read James and the Giant Peach, and we watched that. Same thing, right?

Like, the endings of these Roald Dahl novels are surprising. They ask you to accept a different kind of victory. And that was something really, really exciting and interesting and a little bit, I don't know quite what the word is. It's not melancholy, but this feeling of like sharing a reality of the world that's maybe a little sad with your kids.

Like letting them in on the secret a little bit is what this movie gave me a feeling of and then when we re-watched it this most recent time before recording. They were just so happy again and they were just like, Oh my gosh, and they were giving commentary about why is the grandmother doing that? Or why are they doing that?

Or come on, kid. they were much more involved and, you know, five, six years later than the first time they watched it, giving input about how they would be handling the situation.

Sarah: That's a really interesting. It's a really interesting, um, depiction of, like, child development too, right? Because, like, when you are, like, four, five, six, you're just sort of, like, responding to what you're seeing and what happens to you.

Whereas, when you're older, when you're, you know, your kid's ages, now you're thinking about putting yourself in that, in, in that perspective and how would you troubleshoot and what would that feel like to be that character? that's really interesting. That's really cool to have those two, like snapshots in time with your kids. 

Jennie: Yeah. It's interesting. And the fact that their understanding of The Witches evolved mirrors the main theme I have for this conversation. And the reason I bring us the witches is this movie for me is a real, the movie, The Witchesreally kind of encapsulates and gives a lot of opportunities to reflect on how fear changes over time, how the things that scare you change over time. And so I wanna talk through different aspects of the movie and go through what used to scare me, but, and now what scares me? So how has it changed from whenever I was a child to now what scares me? And I'm interested to know if any of these fears are the same as yours or if.

I am alone on the sphere ship because the witches is still really scary to, like, it's actually still very scary, not in a shock, awe way, not in a like, whoa, look at those puppet witches. They're so scary. but the just idea of it has an almost Aesop's Fable level quality to it. Like it feels like the story has always existed.

Sarah: Oh, my gosh. Well, I can't wait to get into this. And, I love your fear ship illustration. And I don't want you to be floating on a fear ship all by yourself. But before we get into that, I'm really eager to know what your Screen Shares rating is for this movie. Any listeners who might not be aware of our categories, we have little screen, love screen, family screen, solo screen, buddy screen and work screen.

And these are all our categories that we've created to sort of help guide you into choosing which movie you would like to watch with which kind of group of person or people in your life. So Jennie, what is your Screen Shares rating. 

Jennie: I think this will come as no surprise that my screen shares rating for The Witches is Little screen.

Little screen, little screen. Great if you can do a family screen as well and have a multi generational viewing, but I think that this is a really great movie to watch with kids. As young as five years old, I think. I think, again, um, user your personal, you know, judgment, some kids are really freaked out by scary puppets and this was, um, produced, co-produced by Jim Henson, who did all of the Muppet things.

In fact, it was the last thing that he recorded before dying. It was his last film and so it's definitely has some like legitimately scary imagery and in fact, just an interesting aside, uh, Um, Roald Dahl actually hated the film. He described it as grotesque and too scary and over the top, because I think he didn't want to terrify children.

I think he wanted to make them feel unsettled and think, but he, I don't think, was quite there for the all in terror factory that was the Jim Henson puppet. So again, some kids are going to think it's fascinating and love it. Mine did. I did, but I know that there's some even older kids who might not jive for that.

But I think that just like what you described, watching it with your parents, it can give kids kind of a window into the world while feeling safe with you. It's a good introductory horror film. 

Sarah: I think that's a great rating, that makes a lot of sense. Probably makes more sense than my Screen Share's rating.

I'm gonna go for it. I was, um, I, I wanted to say little screen because, um, of all the reasons that she mentioned, but I'm going to have to go with-work screen. We've got a convention, and I think a lot of folks who have jobs where there are conventions could sort of, um, enjoy seeing a, an offbeat, an uncanny representation of.

A convention when we have just villains there, I think, similarly to like Despicable, one of the Despicable movies where there's that like, you know, convention of all the bad guys. but I also think it would be a really great illustration about, group think and what can happen when you're in a group of people, um, in a workplace situation where everybody is, the leader, your boss, the manager, the president, the CEO, whoever it is.

Um, and. Incapable or unwilling to think critically and bravely speak up if there is something that shouldn't be happening. And granted, all of these, you know, underlings were all evil and loved doing what they were doing anyway. But, I think it'd be a really fun thing to do with a bunch of coworkers, and look at it from that perspective.

Jennie: Can you describe the scene at the very beginning of the convention, whenever Angelica Huston's witch character shows her management style whenever someone voices up in the teeny tiniest way. 

Sarah: I mean, they get killed. 

Jennie: Like, immediately. as soon as she found out who did it, she, she, she cut him off.

And I think that that is such a good Screen Shares rating. I think there's a lot of wealth there to mine in, you know, in a, in an adult setting because, yeah, it's a very like Rigid hierarchy. And they do get into the nitty gritty in this conversation about how are they going to pay for it? How are they going to distribute it?

There's like a Rolodex that the mouse boy ends up getting with. That's how they are going to go hunt down other witches because they have this consolidation of information. I think that is spot on. I love that there is something for everyone in this. And I think that that actually brings me to one of the points and one of the fears, actually that this movie planted in me as a child, and also something that I would say that this fear continued for me. This fear is lingering and that is the mistrust of authority. I think that when as a child, maybe this was the first movie I had ever seen that showed a convention that showed an adult structured organization where they are making plans, and of course, they're not making plans to make toys or prevent the cruelty of children.

They're making sneaky, nefarious plans to poison children and turn them into mice. And, um, uh, That, for me, the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children Convention really made me look at all authority and organizations and conventions and things like that with a little bit of like, what are you actually doing?

What's your actual motivation? And I won't lie, that definitely still lingers with me. Like, why is this group doing this? What are they getting out of it? is it transparent and true? I don't know if I'm reading too much into it, but I think that that kind of, even as a parenting technique, I'm always telling my kids, like, think about what you're being asked to do.

Just think about it. Trust, you know, but don't put your trust blindly into things. 

Sarah: I’m interested to know, so anytime some, we have this formative experience as a kid, um, we read something, see something, experience something, and it plants that seed, like you're saying. the seed will die. Unless it is nourished by evidence or experiences that support that very same thing.

So in your life, in your professional career, as an educator, even though you're not getting paid for educating, you're still an educator, but in your professional side of educating, have you seen something that kind of continued that thought process and that feeling? 

Jennie: Oh, yes. I would say, I would say that I have, and without getting too specific and naming names or anything like that, I would say that I'm pretty vigilant for any time adults are putting their own interest above children, specifically in education. There are a lot of examples of adults using education as a way to manage children in a way that does not serve children. It's made to serve adults.

And that's part of why, for my kids, That kind of system just didn't work for them. It does work for a lot of people, and it's necessary for a lot of people. But I've seen a lot of small examples of individual teachers making choices that don't serve their children, their students. And I've seen larger systemic level problems where entire school districts are not doing things that serve their children.

Maybe they've, you know, aligned themselves with a private organization that does something, that does not do what's best for kids. It is the most profitable, least expensive option. And I think that I definitely still see that. And I was raised by two people who were pretty quick. To both. My parents are not people who will like go up and just question authority in their face and kind of a rage against the machine way, but they definitely will, like, quietly subvert or quietly not participate in and just kind of opt out.

And I think that that was definitely modeled for me, like from a young age. And this movie was definitely one of those. And it's not a movie that's encouraging you to just be like, well, those nice ladies are giving you cake. So say thank you. And don't complain. 

Sarah: Oh, that's so, so interesting. That's so interesting.

I feel like we could have a whole series of episodes, um, on all the different types of organizations that, might have, like your feelings about lots of different organizations and how they might have parallels to, the, Royal Society for the Prevention of. Cruelty to children convention. 

Jennie: I, I, that's such a really thoughtful question too, Sarah, because you really hit on the fact that kids can be shown a lot of different things, but it's that nurturing environment that their experiences, that's going to either make something out of it or not.

And so I wonder, did you have a similar experience? What was your like initial fear factor with the movie? The witches, what was it? Why was it scary or was it scary to you? 

Sarah: Oh my gosh, it was terrifying, and it wasn't, you know, just the witches, it was, it was the idea of the organization of the witches, because, to really nerd out, my husband and I had a conversation about D& D the other day about chaotic evil, and I believe it was, chaotic evil in Dungeons Dragons, and how a chaotic evil character runs around and just does evil things because they want to. Like, there's no thought, there's no sort of framework or anything and then you have the other evil characters that have a code.

So, like Dexter. Dexter Morgan has a code. He kills people under very specific circumstances, and, and he does his evil that way, and I think it's a lot scarier when you've got some sort of organization that is operating. and sort of increasing the strength, magnifying the power of the evil by however many participants you have and knowing that this was like a global organization was really terrifying to me. Knowing that it's like, here's my, here's my nice face, but like underneath, simmering underneath is like my scary, like, you know, square toed, like, evil side that, you know, loves to eat children. So I think there was sort of a lot of that element of the secrecy, the organization, the like, concealment factor, that I found particularly scary.

Jennie: I agree completely. I think that that's a really good observation because it's It is you use the word it kind of magnifies or multiplies the evil. It's much harder to I feel like it's much harder to stop. I mean, the lengths they had to go to was not just defeating one which it was defeating all of the witches.

And I think that the other thing that's really frustrating as a child is that feeling you often have of I see something that is unjust. Um, or scary or unfair or wrong with the world and the adults of the world won't listen to me. And I feel like the boy in the book and in the movie, he has his little mice pets to start with, which kind of gives you this feeling that he's already a bit of an outsider.

The hotel doesn't want him there. They don't want the, The mice, they kind of give you this feeling that maybe the grandmother isn't like fancy pants enough to be at this hotel. And they do that in the adaptation, I think, the second adaptation with Anne Hathaway. I think they do that really well there too, this like outsider status.

And I think that outsider status and youth gives you that feeling of not being empowered to do anything about something that feels very obvious. to you. And all of the powers that be, the concierge at the hotel, all of the other guests, they're, you know, fawning over Angelica Houston and all of the witches and going out of their way to be deferential to them.

Well, all the while, the people who needed protecting are being ignored. And I think that Without getting too philosophical about it, I think that that's a real way to look at the world as well. Like, look at who are the minority groups, who are the people lacking in power that aren't being listened to.

And I think that that's also another reason why I kept that theme. Um, so I would say that that fear stayed with me. And there's a quote in the book and in the movie. That the grandmother says whenever she's describing the witches to the grandson and explaining to him how to find one, how to spot a witch.

And she says, they're dangerous because she doesn't look dangerous. And I think that. That is it. That is it. It's those, you know, the, the shinier things are sometimes the most corrosive or dangerous. And that definitely was made an example of throughout the movie in really uncanny ways. Like at the beginning when this random woman walks up to the boy playing in a tree.

And offers him a snake because, quote, little boys love snakes, but she's pretty, she's polished, she's well put together, but her intentions are not good. And the boy is quick enough to know that because he was warned by his grandmother who didn't shy away from telling him the truth. 

Sarah: You know, what's really interesting to me about, what you just said is that, I'm hearing repeated threads of things that made an impact on you from last season of Screen Scares.

When you talked about, um, Hocus Pocus last year, I remember the great conversation that we had about, how It was really, it really bothered you that nobody listened to the kids, that the whole, you know, that was one of the most terrifying factors, that you have kids here, they're seeing what is happening, they're trying to scream it to the world, and you have all these dense adults just at a dance party, like, ignoring everything and I hear that again when you're bringing this up, about, The Witches, um, again, a witch thread and then a thread of like kids not being listened to, of seeing the thing for what it is and, and being ignored. and I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit more about, the fear ship and maybe why, why that hits so hard for you?

Jennie: Man, you're more observant about me than I am. I didn't even make that connection. But yeah, no, that thread really goes straight back through to Hocus Pocus last season of Screen Scares. It really, really, really does. I don't know. I think that as a person, I, as like a person on like a talking to my therapist level, not being understood is deeply upsetting to me. Like, I, I, I love talking, which is part of why I have a podcast with you. We love to talk. And so being understood clearly is extremely important. And then I also just feel like I don't like the arrogance that sometimes people have whenever they think they don't need to listen to people with less power.

I think that you really can learn the most by listening to the people who are on the... I don't know how to say this, but, like, listening to people who are on the, like, bummer end of, of power dynamics, um, you know, the side of it who just, just, just don't have the power, I feel like they just see things much more clearly.

And so, yeah, I think that there's so many times when, I don't feel like I've been listened to or I don't feel like my perspective has been valued for various different reasons, but. I do try to go out of my way to listen to my kids and to only ever have rules or expectations or systems in place that actually serve them.

And so, ultimately adults are in charge for a reason because we have had more experience. experience, and I think that's important, but I think that there's no harm in just listening to somebody, especially if they're trying to tell you that some witches are turning everybody into mice.

Sarah: Absolutely and I-sidebar, I think you do a phenomenal job of both communicating effectively and thoughtfully, but also listening. You know, like how sometimes you meet people and like, you know, like Maybe because you're close with them, maybe, you know, like what their greatest fear is or their major, you know, just something that really bothers them, but then you also see that they do the thing that they're afraid of being done to them.

but that's not you at all. Like you, you're somebody who works very hard to understand other people. and I think that's really special and nice to see. Like I, I've never seen you to not be curious about. Another person's experience, even if that person really annoyed the heck out of you, like you've, you know, had your annoyance moment You're like, yeah this person, but then also I wonder what is going on with them.

Jennie: What let them do today? I think curiosity is actually a really really big thing to of childhood And I think it's something that often gets Swept under the rug in favor of knowing, which is something that I think a lot of adults and a lot of systems do, like it's harder to assert power whenever you are openly questioning things, because I think that, in my mind anyway, like systems and organizations are very much decision makers and then executors, like they decide and they do, whereas My paralyzing indecision is often because I just want to, like, think about all the things and explore all the options.

Sarah: Oh my gosh, what a quote. Curiosity is swept under the rug by knowing. I love that. 

Jennie: Ooh. Yeah. Did I just say that? Wow. Like, 

Sarah: You basically said that. Like, pretty brilliant. I love it.

Jennie: Well, there we go. Wow. Okay. Well, this, what a thing to do early in the morning. Just saying quotes and doing things. Thank you, The Witches, for bringing us insights. This is the thing. I think that's what's so awesome about Scream Scare Season is it allows us to really dig into fears, which I think really allows us to look at motivation and desire and stuff like that. Let's, let's move from what I was afraid of. Actually, I haven't even talked about the thing I was most afraid of.

Let me get into it. The thing that scared me most, the most in The Witches was the painting. There's actually several articles I'll link to in our, in our show notes. It was not just me. It was our entire generation was traumatized by this painting. And do you know the painting I'm talking about? And can you kind of describe it from the movie?

Sarah: Actually, can you describe it? Only because you're our art lady. 

Jennie: Okay. So, the grandmother at the beginning, whenever she's talking about how to spot witches, she's sharing her own experience of how one of her friends went missing. And she knew, because she was a child who was paying attention, that this, this witch definitely did something to her friend.

And after they've been looking to her friend for a while, A family painting that was kind of an empty landscape, it, you know, had a little cabin in it, but it was one of those Bob Ross-esque Thomas Kinkade paintings, um, sepia tones, oil painting, nice gilded frame, um, not gilded, gilded frame, it was a Freudian slip.

Sarah:It's a Catholic version. <laughter>

Jennie: Right, the Catholic version of the frame. Um, it was hanging in this family's house and, They end up seeing the little girl there painted into the landscape where she had not been before. And the grandmother describes how this painting over the years changed and the little girl grew and she was sad and you have images of her crying, this oil painted little girl, then oil painted little teenager, and then eventually old woman bent over feeding chickens in the picture.

And then finally she's gone and you're led to understand that this girl was somehow trapped in a painting. For her entire life, living this solitary confinement of never being able to grow up in the world of adults. And so, oh my terror. Like, that is just scary, scary, scary stuff. Um, I... I, I, I like really like have images in my mind of that painting and my grandmother and grandfather also had a painting at their house above whenever I talked about the blue couch in the Wizard of Oz episode, right above it was this great big painting of like a lake and a little house.

And I swear I was certain that something was going to happen to me where I would end up in that painting and I would forever be trapped in oil paint. 

Sarah: Oh my gosh. That is, you described that so beautifully and so well. I mean, I felt the little hairs on the back of my neck tingle. I'm wondering, can you talk a little bit about, That painting and that experience of watching this very terrifying idea of isolation and confinement, in context with your own art background a little bit?

Jennie: Yeah, actually. So that's another connection too. So with my dad's mother, um, Wilma, my grandmother, She and I would actually do oil painting together. And so similar to the little boy in the movie, he had a really strong connection with his grandmother. And so she was also a great teller of truth and not sugar coating things.

Like she would just tell you how it was about anything. And so, um, we did oil painting together again. Bob Ross is a bit of a, Mascot for my life because of this, because we would be watching Bob Ross videos and doing our own little paintings to match. And so there's power in that creation, right?

There's, there's power in that. But whenever you get trapped by someone who. I feel like what was super scary about the witches is that they understood it's not enough to just kill children. They want to trap them or make them even smaller than they already are. As mice. Which is way worse. Way worse than just dying.

And so I, I, I think that I think very visually, I hold visual memories very strongly as someone who likes to view art and create art. And so I think that's part of why the image of that little girl crying and, you know, painted as an oil painting figure, um, is just so indelible to me, like it just lives there in my mind.

That fear is still real, but I think it was especially acute as a child, and that was part of the changing fear of this conversation is that back then, for me, in addition to not being listened to, the greatest fear was never actually getting to grow up and get into the adult world, like never actually getting to live your life because it feels like it's taking forever when you're a kid. The idea of that never happening, Ugh! The worst. 

Sarah: Oh my gosh. So, again, I feel like you're talking about, almost a developmental progression. So, like, you talked about, you know, your boy's experience, seeing it when they were little, to seeing it, again, how different, but also the same in some ways when they were older.

And so, you're talking about, your progression of your own experience of the things that you found scary. Um, are there other things that you felt that were really terrifying, 

Jennie: I think that I've really kind of hit on the big themes of, of when I was a child. What about you? Was there anything extra in this that was scary for you that we haven't already hit on?

Sarah: I think there was, I think predominantly like as a kid when I watched it, it really was just the element of like, I don't know, could my teacher be a witch? I don't know. Not sure. I mean, there really was that, and it weirded me out to suddenly realize that, um, adults are not all well meaning.

So that, for me, was sort of, sort of the piece, I really didn't like the idea of, this really special relationship between the boy and his grandmother being damaged in any way, like, Because one of them died or was killed. And so I was really like, I just basically, didn't want the mouse to die, but like, I really just needed the boy and the grandma to live forever together.

Jennie: I think that's exactly right. And I think that actually segues nicely into my last Fear that I did not realize even was embedded in this movie until I became an adult and had my own children of my own. And that is the fear of a caretaker. A fear of someone needing to protect. And there's a quote in the movie, it doesn't matter who you are or what you look like so long as somebody loves you, which I think is really sweet. But also I think you matter whether or not someone loves you. The other quote from it that I think is really, really, I'm not a boy any longer, and I never will be again, but I'll be quite all right, as long as there's always you to look after me. And this is after the boy is, in fact, turned into a mouse. And in the movie, this adaptation, the 1990s version, he, a good witch, turns him back into a boy, which is, Deviates strongly from the book where Roald Dahl is like, Nope, you're a mouse.

You're going to live for nine years. You're going to hunt witches with your grandmother. Good luck. And he was like, well, that's fine. Cause I don't want to be alive without you. And you're probably going to die in nine years. So this is good. Um, which, whoa, like I'm not, I'm not signing off on that logic, oh, okay, well, he's expecting, you know, accepting the hand that was dealt to him kind of logic. But as a caretaker, thinking someone is putting so much trust in you, your kids feel, feel deeply safe with you. And the way that a little mouse boy feels so safe with his grandmother, I'll be okay.

I can be a mouse because I know you're taking care of me. Very empowering, um, also terrifying that you have to take these little mice children, your actual children who can feel as fragile as mice at times, and get them through the world full of all these scary hidden things. Get them beyond that oil painting.Don't trap them, but let them into the world. That is terrifying.

Sarah: It really is. I mean, the stakes are high. Like, this is not a, like, oh, well, you know, whatever thing. Like, this is like, this is the ultimate journey, really, isn't it? 

Jennie: Right. Yeah, I think that that is what's really, really scary, is the idea that you have to be brave for someone else, you have to protect someone else, and you have to get them through all the things.

And the extra special place that The Witches holds for me is that my kids did connect so strongly with it, and it's a point where we can be scared together. But I can tell them I will be there for them the same way your parents were there for you whenever you watch that movie with them. Give them that safety network, but also, like, brace yourself as an adult to know they're going to be okay, whether they're a little mouse in your purse.

You're not going to trap them in that painting of life. You're going to let them out. You're going to show them the risks in a safe way by watching movies like this, by having honest conversations. And can you describe, I just sent you a picture and a link. a picture of my youngest child, who also strongly connected with really just witches in general.

He, he loves the idea of having extra power. Um, but specifically the book, The Witches. 

Sarah: This is a beautiful photo, it looks a little bit, it looks perfect for Witchtober, really. I mean, it clearly was taken during the month of, um, Halloween. There's like, we see a darkened doorway and on one side of the doorway, there are bat decorations and the center, you know, the center focal point is, bright, but also, It looks like it was just lit with, like, you know, a warm lamp, and you see a little snippet of, your youngest there just sort of cozied up and reading a book, in the background. Um, but it's a really interesting photo, actually.

Jennie: This is a picture of my youngest reading the graphic novel version of the Roald Dahl book, The Witches. Oh, wow! And this is... And I posted this picture and shared it because reading has been a real struggle for him. Being motivated to read is a real struggle and it's hard to do things that are hard. But we tell each other all the time, and I know you do this with your kids too, that we can do hard things.

And this is a picture where I looked into the homeschool space and I saw him reading and I was like, Oh my gosh, he is doing it on his own. He is motivated. He was excited with this text and he felt like he could do it. And so whether we are fighting real witches, whether we are, um, just, you know, getting our kids through the day.

I just want to remind ourselves and remind myself that it's okay to be scared as an adult or as a kid, but just look for those bright moments and have faith that there are some good people who really are as good as they look. It's not always a trick. So during Witchtober, during Witchtober and during Scream Scare season, let's look at our fears.

And let's overcome them the same way that Patrick, the same way that my son, overcame his fear of being able to read. And he found the right material for it, and I think that we're gonna get our kids through it, even if it's scary, and it's okay to look back and reflect on, Why you were scared before and if you're still scared now.

And I really thank you so much, Sarah, for asking such thoughtful questions, because I've come away with this conversation with even more insights into why the witches was scary to me and how that knowledge can help inform my daily life. 

Sarah: Well, thank you for that. Gosh, you just sort of turned, um, a conversation about an incredible movie into sort of a, a warm and cozy feeling of like, I can do this.

I can get through my day. I'm sure my kids when they listen to this episode or any of our listeners when they hear this will feel like, wow, I, I matter. I can find meaning in things. I am important. things that are scary, might be scary for a reason that's worth looking into. And yet I can get through them just like your sweet boy did and, just like the characters in the movie did, and so I'm guessing, like, I just kind of feel like that might be your, one of your witchy superpowers is like the ability to connect with people in a real way and, um, sprinkle warmth.

Like I just like warm, cozy warmth on things. I don't know if that's like a, maybe you're not turning things into demons or whatever, but like, I feel like that's pretty fantastic. 

Jennie: Oh, I love it. It's the opposite of being a mouse. It's being a warm, cozy, warm, cozy, cozy giant, right? Like a big teddy bear of warmth and comfort.

So go into your day, even if, if you're a mouse, a caretaker, a kid, you've got this, you've got power, and there are people in your corner.

 Outro, both hosts

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Thanks for letting us share our screens and scares with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meaning behind the screen and enjoy our special spooky October Screen Scares episodes. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts. 

Then, if you’re like Jennie and I and love digging deeper into the things that fascinate or horrify you, drop by our social media pages, check out our show notes, or visit our website at www.screencares.com for more info. 

Huge special thanks to Brooks Milgate for giving our Screen Cares theme song a spooky spin for Screen Cares month. 

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